No, I have no idea how to play my class, please tell me more.

Josh wants to work on his DK’s gear, so I volunteered to tank for him-as a DPS, nothing beats having a tank buddy for insta-queues.  My paladin could still use some badge gear, as I do use her for Ulduar hard mode tanking.  

As always, I am…quite vocal while tanking.  Josh is treated to a slew of commentary, usually along the lines of “You know, I can hold the aggro on that caster over there just fine IF YOU DON’T FUCKING TOUCH IT YOU FUCKING MORON!” and “I guess the concept of waiting until I position the mobs is entirely foreign to you.”

In one particular Halls of Lightning run, I was pulling conservatively.  Not only do I tend to this out of habit, but the group had already proven that they couldn’t keep their trigger happy mitts off single mobs I was dragging.  

This does, however, often leave me faced with mana problems-I’m usually running around sans a piece of armor and using Seal of Wisdom.   This was the case in HoL, but things had gone mostly smoothly.  I say mostly because we did have some cases of Oh Look The Melee Died, but that was mostly the rogue not realizing that running out of The Bad was generally better for his health.

I would also like to note that the only time I had issues with aggro was when Josh ended up in Frost Presence.  Yet for some reason, as we’re clearing the trash to Loken, I get a whisper from the warlock.

“Did you know that Seal of Vengeance does more threat?”

I halted.  All sorts of surprise and sarcasm welled forth (“No shit?”), but I managed a polite, “I know, but I’m overgeared to the point where I have mana problems in old heroics, so  use Wisdom.”  And unable to help myself, I pointed out Vengeance is not the seal to use on trash, regardless.  Mobs don’t live long enough for the stacks to be really useful.

…so they oh so helpfully told me I should chain pull.

“Ah,” I said, “but I’ve learned I can’t always trust the DPS to behave in random heroics, making chain pulling difficult.”  I continue to boggle at how much some people struggle with the concept of letting the tank position mobs.

I got a non-committal response with a : \ face.

…then I whined to Josh that I was being told how to tank, and he initiated a vote-kick for the person.  /facepalm

I’m just wondering why the hell someone would feel compelled to try to tell me how to play when I’m not having any fucking problems.  The rogue died when all the slag mobs exploded?  Not due to threat on my part.  The DK and the rogue died on the lightning crackly boss because they can’t get out of the fucking way?  Not my problem.  I even generally held all the trash, so I’m not sure why this stranger on the internet felt compelled to tell me I was using the “wrong” seal when anyone who actually plays a fucking pally tank would know exactly why I was using Wisdom.

How about you don’t make an already timid tank second guess herself further by keeping your fucking mouth shut?

Thank you.

Oh by the way, did you know that you shouldn’t use fear in an instance?  It’s really annoying.

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  1. #1 by khalima on March 1, 2010 - 11:45 am

    asscherries will sooth the savage beast. take 2 and call me in teh morning.

    i feal your pain. my main is a prot warrior, and i aually have to take off 3 or 4 pieces of gaer so not to be rage starved in heroics. i get tells from the DPS “dude puts your pants back on, are your DEF capped?”. it’s to the point now i tank heroics in FURY!!! the tells get funnier after that. “as long as i keep aggro, and you dont die, dont tell me how to do my job”

  2. #2 by Zilyanna on March 1, 2010 - 11:46 am

    I’m leveling up a protadin using the LFD tool and while for the most part it has been a fun time, the one thing that has been a constant is idiot DPS opening up on the mobs before they even get to me. ESPECIALLY if I’m trying to los casters, there’s always some huntard pew pewing or some warrior charging the mob.

  3. #3 by Kae on March 1, 2010 - 11:49 am

    I had some resto shaman ask why I (on my enhance shammy alt) didn’t have the shammy weapon enchants on my weapons. I did have them on. In fact, they were making swirly GLOWY SHINY affects in the air around the MASSIVE hammers I was using.

    He also asked why I wasn’t using earth shock in my rotations. I was.

    After a few more annoying whispers, I put him on ignore. He started pestering the tank instead, then.

  4. #4 by Echo on March 1, 2010 - 12:01 pm

    I’m also levelling a prot pally. What fucks me off is when you’re pulling and you’re dragging lots together and theres some dickhead opening up early. Or even trying to ninja more mobs in.

    I even had a DK try and tell me to tank in one of the randoms I was in the other day (posted on my blog). MANA DRAINING MOBS SHOULD NOT BE CHAIN PULLED *deep breath*

  5. #5 by Floramel on March 1, 2010 - 12:12 pm

    Don’t use fear in an … OH MAI.

    Well that’s an interesting concept.

  6. #6 by Sadysm on March 1, 2010 - 12:29 pm

    You know what, I would love to heal for you. I think not only could you learn a little confidence, but I think it would be some of the most fun I’d have in a heroic.

  7. #7 by Zha'ane/Channi on March 1, 2010 - 12:39 pm

    Really, I don’t care about your gear score… I don’t want to know your rotations… All I ask is you get the job done, and Dont Be an @$$hat!

    But apparently, that’s too much to ask of some people.

    It’s the few rotten million that ruin LFD for the other hundred or so good players!

  8. #8 by Zha'ane/Channi on March 1, 2010 - 12:41 pm

    That, of course was not directed at anyone here… That’s just my frame of mind when I enter LFD.

    Just rereading that after I posted it, it looked kinda odd…

  9. #9 by Taz on March 1, 2010 - 12:47 pm

    I think describing yourself as a “timid tank” is a bit off the mark. You seem very certain of yourself in this post, which is, of course, something all tanks need to be to deal with the variety of people you get in PuGs, etc.

    I have to be honest, it is odd to me that someone offering a comment on your class (however misplaced it was in this situation) would result in getting them vote-kicked. Even if their comment was off base, it didn’t sound like the warlock was criticizing you, just trying to help. There are lots of tanks in PuGs who *don’t* always know the best thing to do for their class (there are lots of everyone, in fact, who don’t always know), and maybe the warlock thought you were frustrated for whatever reason and was trying to help/encourage you.

    My main is a resto druid, and when playing on an alt and seeing another resto druid who was frustrated and unhappy, I offered a piece of advice, hoping to help a fellow tree feel better. The response? “If you’re so smart, you heal!” The druid immediately switched specs and stopped healing entirely, leaving my shammy to pick up the pieces. (Which she did without too much issue.)

    Why must everyone be so sensitive to class discussions, suggestions or comments? I understand the impulse, of course, to immediately go on the defensive, but does it really help the situation to assume that every PuG who says anything to you about your class is a complete asshat? Not to mention the fact that it makes something which should be fun and recreational become tense and upsetting for everyone.

    That’s not to say that there aren’t complete asshats out there who should be stuffed on ignore asap, but all the same, wouldn’t it be cool to be able to blog about how a warlock commented on your pally tanking, and you helped them better understand the pally class and how tanking mechanics work? (Although a good rant is always a fun read, I must admit!)

    P.S. I love reading your blog! Thanks for all of the entertaining posts…and flowcharts. :D

  10. #10 by anafielle on March 1, 2010 - 12:53 pm

    Luckily I run with guildies so much that I rarely get the assholes in LFG.

    I try to avoid SoW, mostly because I love the big numbers SoComm pumps out.

    My current “lolheroics” gear set is: tank gear + ret t9.245 legs / shoulders, ret cloak, DPS rings, DMC:G, and the Onyxia trinket to keep my def capped.

    This drops my HP from 46.5k unbuffed down to about 37k unbuffed, which lets me get enough heals that I’m OK on mana.

    I still have trouble when the instance is very DP – unfriendly. (ex/ Violet Hold, where it’s like the portals are flawlessly timed to let Divine Plea fall off between each one).

  11. #11 by Joe Ego on March 1, 2010 - 12:57 pm

    My favorite part of the current LFD implementation is how all the drama gets pushed into the back half of the instance. It’s like all the busy body know nothings can just sense the time when they can be vote-kicked is near. Like moths to the flame.

    Quick! Start whining about something aloud in /party before they decide to kick that other guy doing 800 dps!

    Pretend to be pleasant and do your part. Unless you’re being called out for obvious problems then let’s just finish the damned run so we never have to see each other again.

  12. #12 by Ambrosine on March 1, 2010 - 1:43 pm

    @Taz – It was the boy who initiated the vote, not I. It’s certainly not my first instinct-I’ve never tried to vote kick anyone, in fact, no matter how much they made me rage/cry inside. Josh is a far more tempermental individual than I, though.

    I was just struck odd that I’d be offered “advice” when I’d been doing fine all along. I wondered what had warrented it-my Seal choice is perfectly logical and even common. Asking about why I wasn’t chain pulling, sure…THAT might have been construed as odd. But…why ask if I knew that SoV did more threat? That’s a fairly basic tankadin thing, and smacks of slightly insulting to ask of an experienced tank.

  13. #13 by Ori on March 1, 2010 - 1:45 pm

    LFD is starting to be full of surly people who want any excuse to complain about things.

    You just have to keep reminding yourself that you do a great job, and if someone has a problem, it’s probably their fault. Much easier said than done, I know. XD When people criticize my healing I flail.

  14. #14 by Taz on March 1, 2010 - 2:07 pm

    @Ambrosine – That was exactly my point – HOW does the warlock know that you are an experienced tank? There are lots of inexperienced players out there running around in fancy-pants gear (since Frost Emblems are now handed out like candy). Maybe the guy was a complete jerk-off, maybe he wasn’t. I just thought it was definitely nebulous based on what you wrote above. If he mistakenly thought you were unhappy (you did mention having one instance of aggro issues when Josh was in Frost Presence), he might have assumed he was helping you by pointing out the main threat seal which you weren’t using (for your very good reasons, of course.) If he wasn’t an asshat, at worst he made the mistake of speaking up on something he wasn’t fully informed about and hadn’t fully paid attention to. But even that, according to your story, he did not do in a particularly rude way.

    All I was saying is that sometimes people speak up not out of asshattery but an honest desire to help. And it might make the PuGs we all go through more fun and less stressful if everyone started from that point, instead of assuming the worst from the very first whisper.

    That’s not to say that if they comment, you respond politely, and they say, “You suck at pally tanking, lrn2play,” you should still assume they’re trying to help. Frankly, that’s when I would hit the ignore button, myself. :)

    Believe me when I say that I completely understand the desire to tell people to step back when they whisper me about my class, though. I have had my fair share of asshats whisper me, and I’ve yelled at the computer screen more than I’d like to say. But I’ve discovered that sometimes in engaging with others I’ve learned something new, and sometimes I’ve even managed to teach some stuff to others. Which makes PuGs better for all of us.

  15. #15 by Argon on March 1, 2010 - 2:44 pm

    There are a lot of people out there who don’t really know what they are doing. When I’m playing an alt, instead of my paladin tank, I’ll give bits of advice if people are doing something odd, like not using RF, or using Seal of Wisdom. I usually hold off on mentioning SoW unless the tank is having trouble with aggro.

    One time I mentioned it and the tank said he knew, he just thought it would be easier to get some mana back instead of that extra threat. I didn’t bring it up again. Most of the time, the person just didn’t know. I personally haven’t found that I need SoW but I do end up occasionally popping a mana potion.

    The warlock didn’t even complain in party chat, they whispered you. No need to get so angry.

  16. #16 by Ambrosine on March 1, 2010 - 2:45 pm

    @Taz – I don’t know, there was an overall tone, including the : / face, that got to me. Seals are a very basic tanking thing to correct someone on. The “okay :\” seemed to imply that my answers were somehow…unacceptable?

    I don’t know, I could just be very cranky for no good reason.

  17. #17 by Ambrosine on March 1, 2010 - 2:51 pm

    @Argon – …see reply to Taz. :P

  18. #18 by LabRat on March 1, 2010 - 3:01 pm

    I understand the desire to help, but it’s one thing to want to help and another to assume you know more about the basics of someone’s class and spec than they do when they’re doing just fine. It’s condescending and presumptive, which is a little asshatty in and of itself even if you’re nice about it. There seems to be a movement afoot in the WoW blogosphere to “improve the playerbase” by being “helpful” at every turn, but it’s not always truly helpful and it’s definitely not always polite. I won’t say I’ve never done anything like this, but I’ve always backpedalled like whoa when it turned out that I just didn’t know what the hell I was talking about. Not made sad faces that the other person was not Taking My Wisdom Seriously.

    More on topic, I once spent an entire Pit of Saron with a DK doing shitty DPS who insisted both on telling me how to tank it and reassuring me I was doing fine. Meanwhile he died horribly on Ick and Krick, facepulled one of the groups of caster mobs on Suicide Hill (which me and the healer managed to save us all from), and was just generally made of fail. My husband tells me watching the vein in my temple dance was fun, though.

  19. #19 by Christian on March 1, 2010 - 6:19 pm

    @Taz I hear what you are saying, and agree that a kind word often is mistaken, but that is not only on WOW, but in life in general. How often are unsolicited advice actually welcome?

    If you go up to the mom with the screaming kid and tell her how she can fix it, if you start telling your neighbor how to cut his lawn, or if you tell your colleague how they can do their job better you’d most likely get an unkind reply – no matter what the intentions where.

    Kind strangers who wants to tell us how we can do something better are rarely welcome. If I want a piece of advice I seek it out from a trusted source. I don’t expect, nor seek it out from strangers on the street.

  20. #20 by Taz on March 1, 2010 - 6:46 pm

    @Christian – True enough that kind words of advice are rarely welcome from people we don’t know. However, unlike those “strangers on the street”, we’re not talking about advice from a passerby in Dalaran. We’re talking about advice from people you have agreed to complete a task with – people whose success in this task is tied, inextricably, in with your own.

    Frankly, colleagues and neighbors give unsolicited advice to me all the time. Knowing how to deal with that advice in a positive way not only makes my life less stressful, but theirs as well.

    Moreover, not everyone in WoW has a “trusted source” they can turn to. Not everyone has a helpful guildie or other player they are often playing with. And many, many players never read forums or blogs at all. A lot of people are muddling through. Sometimes they even learn from advice given or offered and become better players for it.

  21. #21 by Christian on March 1, 2010 - 10:40 pm

    @Taz – agree with your points. They are all very valid, and I’m of the same opinion that you are for the most part.

    My comments where more meant to illustrate why unsolicited advice is not welcome, and rarely taken positively.
    In order to take advise from someone a basic level of trust has to be established, and to most of us I don’t think that the LFD tool pairing us together for 20 minutes is sufficient…

  22. #22 by Csara on March 2, 2010 - 4:26 am

    Heh – i do the same thing with the shouting at the screen. The other half frequently threatens to turn my vent off push-to-talk so that people can hear how annoyed I am at them…
    I tell him if he does that, he’d better put his genitals somewhere safe first :P
    I’m also not a fan of unsolicited advice if you haven’t screwed up. OR unsolicited advice if the problem with the group is actually that the DPS have made an ‘AOEDPSLOL’ macro and covered their keyboard with it so they can faceroll and don’t see why that might be a problem for threat occasionally….

    Finally, fear in an instance? Haven’t seen that one yet, though i have seen some pretty amazingly stupid uses of army. I’m sure that I’ll run into it eventually. /cynicism

  23. #23 by Taz on March 2, 2010 - 7:28 am

    @Christian – Fair enough. :)

  24. #24 by shieldbreakr on March 2, 2010 - 9:32 am

    The random dungeon feature has great days and terrible days, this sounds like one of the latter. Too bad.

    Some honest criticism: You use your paly tank to take on Uld Hardmodes, why is HoL giving you any trouble? Just chain pull until mana isn’t a problem. As a now full-time DPS, I can really appreciate a paladin who just runs from one mob pack to the next with mobs trailing. If someone dies, 99% of the time it is their fault anyways.

  25. #25 by Shayzani on March 2, 2010 - 5:41 pm

    Psh, Command is clearly the seal to be using because of the ZOMGPLOSION of numbers on your screen in big groups of mobs.

  26. #26 by tytalus on March 3, 2010 - 11:03 am

    I like using Seal of Command on my pally tank, but then she is specced for tanking heroics – that seal + some points in Reckoning. It helps a lot. But I can understand if Amber’s pally has to maintain a more raid-worthy spec. The running joke in my old guild was for the tank to take their pants off. Would be an extra treat for the pugs eh?

    But the random I ran yesterday featured a high-dps charge ahead of the tank and whirlwind everything warrior. My less than uber-geared pally couldn’t keep up with that, especially when he would charge packs that had nothing but an avenger’s shield to get their attention. After awhile I just stopped caring about what was hitting him, clearly nobody else cared. Fortunately it was a h-HoS and I skipped everything optional. Get me off this crazy thing…

  27. #27 by Brian on October 5, 2010 - 10:38 am

    Glyphed socomm+DP=no mana probs ever. And if you’re in a non-DP friendly run (VH, etc) HotR is usually enough to hold aggro while the dps kills stuff. Maybe even judge for grins.

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