Responsibility.

If you are a public figure, it is my belief that you have a certain amount of rseponsibilty to totally not be an ass.  After all, whether you want to or not, you are setting an example.

This applies even on a smaller scale–even on our scale, here in the World of Warcraft flavored corner of the internets.  I am the GM of Stands in Bad.  I know that my behavior refelcts on my guild, so I try–in general–to not be an ass, because that affects other people (we want awesome people to join the guild, not turn away because I gave in to the urge to be a raging buttnugget one moody evening). 

I am a blogger and not the smallest fish in the pond (hi guys!), so my behavior reflects on other bloggers/priests/hunters/deathnuggets/whatever I am that week.   This is another solid reason to not be a total jerk face even if everyone around me is being one.

And that’s why behavior like Frostheim’s gets my goat.

Regardless of the fact that he “may” have not known that oops, pulling that boss will wipe the group, pulling a boss without everyone else is still a dickish thing to do.   Yes, if he said no to the optional bosses they should not have gone ahead to try to do them anyway, but contrary to popular belief, that doesn’t give you the right to be an ass.

I only do heroics when I have time to do heroics.  This means that I do not do heroics (unless with guildies) right before a raid, even if I have an hour to spare, because 1) queues are mercurial in temperment and length 2) you never know what will happen and 3) I hate feeling pressured for time.

Frostheim said that he “can’t stand people who leave halfway through a heroic — as if they didn’t know how long it would take them”.   But wiping the group because you were short on time was okay, though?

No, sweetheart, that’s not how it works.  Again, I’m not excusing the rest of the group.  But you are Frostheim, a fairly visible member of the hunter community.  A community that’s already suffered under a negtive stereotype, I might add.

Don’t add to it, cockwaffle.*

*I am fully away of the irony granted by scolding someone about their behavior while tossing around words like cockwaffle.  But I’m not scolding him for his language, damn it.

Also this post should count towards my NaNo word count for the day.  YOU MADE ME ANGRY ENOUGH TO STEP AWAY FROM MY NANO, FROSTHEIM.  /shakes fist

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  1. #1 by Kestrel on November 4, 2010 - 11:03 am

    Well, the way I see it, Frostheim’s credibility with the true hunter community dropped about a ton. On the other hand, his cred with the hunTARD community…skyrocketed.

  2. #2 by Antigen on November 4, 2010 - 11:07 am

    I can appreciate Frost’s desire to experiment and look for a challenge (soloing a 5-man heroic boss as a non-hybrid class IS a pretty cool feat), but he simply chose the worst group to do it in. If the group consensus is to do optional bosses, then the majority rules, and if you “don’t have time,” you should just drop out and let someone else step in.

    In this case, the fact that the other two people who went with Frost to the final boss turned around to help out the tank and the optional boss guy is basically four out of the five members of the group saying “Ok, fine, we’ll do the optional bosses.”

    Like I said on Twitter, if he was with some friends or guildies that understood his time constraints or personality, I’m willing to bet it wouldn’t have been a big deal. And the fact that he wasn’t aware that the adds in the Insanity phase were zone-wide shows that him wiping the group wasn’t a malicious act. But pulling and engaging the last boss alone, a boss that one of the group “needed” by Frost’s own admission, was completely irresponsible and disrespectful.

  3. #3 by Ali on November 4, 2010 - 11:10 am

    Wow. That was so incredibly douchey of him to do.

    The attitude of “I don’t have time for all bosses so no one else can do them,” was arrogant and rude. If you don’t have time for a FULL heroic, then don’t queue in the first place.

    I can’t believe his head is so far up his ass he can’t see that every step along the way he was acting like a spoiled brat.

    I can’t say that I am surprised. For the short time I created a hunter and was in his guild, the gchat was full of ‘OMG i’m gonna rapezors this b*tch troll in the *ss’ type of stuff, and hostility towards everyone and everything by many members. The officers on said nothing, so it was pretty clear that his guild, although large, did not show quality from the vocal members.

    Goodbye and good riddance.

  4. #4 by tinkerpriest on November 4, 2010 - 11:22 am

    Good call, bubbles. I’ve always been of the opinion that if you don’t have time to full clear then don’t queue… and if you don’t like what a group is doing, then there is a /leave party option that is easily accessible.

  5. #5 by Turiel on November 4, 2010 - 11:28 am

    Amber,

    I’m actually surprised that you and so many others are so shocked by this. To be honest I do not believe Frost to be in any way “douchey” or having his head up his ass. Granted those are your opinions and you are completely entitled to having them, but I am failing to see how he is being so horrible for what he did.

    This is how I understood his story:
    -He gets into a heroic with a random group.
    -One person asks for all the bosses, he is the only one to reply and politely asks for it not to be the case.
    -When the paths diverge Frost goes one way while the tank and “he who originally asked ” went the other. (The other 2 people are just bystanders in this scenario)
    -Upon realizing that he had something he really needed to do in the near future, and with his expectation of time constraints he was faced looking at the boss and using this rationale:
    “I need to go in a few minutes. I believe I have time, skill, and gear to solo this boss and the remaining two trash mobs before it. If I do this I get the extra points from doing the daily.”

    -He did not however maliciously think “Heh, if I pull this boss, they’ll all die! They’ll see! Don’t mess with me!!!” (or at least it does not appear so.

    -When the boss is pulled and all is going well (for him) the rest of the group gets dominated by the copies of each other (which is kind of funny as they really are quite easy to kill for all classes). Most unfortunate. They get angry, he didn’t realize what happened, and when he did it was all too late.

    -They get pissed and leave, he loses what he initially wanted. It happens, life goes on and he thinks it is kind of funny in retrospect.

    Now, if you think him an incredible ass for doing this, fair enough. I just differ in opinion!

  6. #6 by Kestrel on November 4, 2010 - 11:34 am

    Sorry, Turiel, not buying that. It’s a GROUP instance. If he wanted to solo, the proper thing would have been to drop from the group (with an apology) and go back in solo.

    Granted, there was poor communication, especially from the tank. Still, that’s not an excuse for Frost to break Rule #1: DBAD.

  7. #7 by Turiel on November 4, 2010 - 11:42 am

    @Kestrel:

    I just don’t understand why there is so much black and white with it all? Sometimes I feel like I am the only one who sees things in shades of gray.

    What I was saying agrees with you in that it is a group instance, and he probably shouldn’t have done it. But he wasn’t maliciously acting and if anything figured he could have soloed it and gotten his group the extra JP as well for less work.

    (See: My ret pally in full 264 queue-ing as a tank, healer, and dps for both the HH and Brewfest bosses so that I don’t have to wait, as I can effectively heal, tank, and dps the boss alone for the whole group)

    There are times when solo-ing group things is faster than waiting for a group which decided their agenda is different. Also, the difference between a full clear OK and your average heroic instance is roughly 20 minutes, so I’d say him only having enough time to do the 3(2-depending on the path you take from the start) required bosses as understandable.

    Again, he wasn’t RIGHT in what he did, but what he did in my opinion does not make him a complete asshat. There is a place in the middle of those two where many actions we take seem to land…

  8. #8 by Turiel on November 4, 2010 - 11:43 am

    Also, rule#1 is totally not DBAD, that’s rule #2.

    All raiders know rule#1 is clearly DSIF!

  9. #9 by Rilgon Arcsinh on November 4, 2010 - 11:48 am

    It has less to do with the action and more to do with the written intent.

    Quotes such as “if it weren’t for those other classes holding me back I could totally have solod heroic Volazj”, Whoops, I guess that boss encounter is zone-wide. And honestly, how did those weakling little nightmares kill them? Oh well, and Screw ‘em, I figured, I’ll just finish off the instance on my own. Goddamnit I don’t need them — I’m a hunter! demonstrate that this was not just “well, I can solo this, so I’m going to”, but more “well fuck you guys for not doing what I want, I’m fucking Frostheim, I get whatever I want whenever the fuck I want it, regardless of demonstrable aptitude at anything!”.

    Was there miscommunication? Yes, absolutely. But in that situation, the “not a raging dickweed” option is to apologize and leave politely, not “charge in” and try to solo the boss without consideration for the well-being of the rest of the group.

  10. #10 by Turiel on November 4, 2010 - 11:58 am

    @Rilgon Arcsinh:

    I understand completely what you mean, and to that point (again I’m not totally defending Frost here, I have stated above that I DO think he was wrong, just not a complete d-bag for it all) I add this:

    I take those comments in context, as I am a semi-frequenter of his works of writing. It’s always been a semi-part of his style to over-zealously discuss hunter-ing, so to me it comes off less douchy. I can however definitely agree with you if this is one of your first time reading his articles, but really- that style is a discussion of context. There are numerous examples of this where I can point out authors who will state things that, if taken literally, we can call them as being elitist jerks, but if you take it in context (that they are writing to amuse) you realize they probably less evil than they are stating.

  11. #11 by Natalie on November 4, 2010 - 12:19 pm

    I agree with you. If you’re in the minority with regards to the group then suck it the #@$% up and go with the group or leave the party.

    An extra ten precious minutes of his precious day was not going to kill him. You join a 5 man, it’s a group effort, you do what the GROUP wants. If you don’t like it then drop the damn group, don’t be a douchebagel.

  12. #12 by Rilgon Arcsinh on November 4, 2010 - 1:23 pm

    It’s always been a semi-part of his style to over-zealously discuss hunter-ing

    Has being wrong and deleting any comment that proves he’s wrong been part of his “style” all along, too?

  13. #13 by Linedan on November 4, 2010 - 1:33 pm

    I have to say, I’m pretty disappointed in the way he handled it. There’s douchery all around (the group splitting apart without saying anything, the two guys basically dumping a Faceless One on him and running to join the tank) but come on. He doesn’t have the time to do the extra bosses, but he does have the time to try and solo Volazj, which would take a similar amount of time? Not buying it. Not to mention, if he does manage to solo Volazj while the other four are off doing whatever, he completes the instance and then they *can’t* summon a fifth if they need to once he leaves.

    Basically, the whole post is all “look how fabulous I am, these peons got in my way and disrupted my schedule, wait, let me flex my muscles and show you my badass…oops, they died, haha, sucks to be them.” That is a TERRIBLE attitude. It’s the kind of feckless arrogance, especially from a high-profile figure, that makes people think all hunters are “huntards.”

  14. #14 by Rilgon Arcsinh on November 4, 2010 - 1:47 pm

    And yet it’s completely typical of him, Linedan. :P

  15. #15 by Achloryn on November 4, 2010 - 1:50 pm

    Amber, I actually can’t believe you still read Frostheim…. just saying..

    Turiel, He may not have intentionally meant to kill the group, but he still went about the miscommunication in the absolute worst way. No one answered the guy except him. He assumed they would all stick with him. The others followed the tank.. And seriously, who just randomly DECIDES to not stick with their tank? That’s kind of one of the main damn points of doing a dungeon. If he didn’t have time, he should’ve just left the dungeon. Even if he hates when people do that (as we all do, believe me) Sometimes *shit happens*.

    Rilgon.. You pretty much hit it on the head with this: “Was there miscommunication? Yes, absolutely. But in that situation, the “not a raging dickweed” option is to apologize and leave politely, not “charge in” and try to solo the boss without consideration for the well-being of the rest of the group.”

  16. #16 by Turiel on November 4, 2010 - 2:20 pm

    @Rilgon:

    To that extent, I have no idea what his comment moderation is like, if he be a Nazi or a free flower, I generally don’t comment/read comments on sites where there will be over 100 because it takes too long to read the comments to become up to speed to contribute (imo) fully to the conversation. You may very well be right- but I don’t see how that changes how his style of writing is and how you should interpret it. It sounds like you are very aware and knowledgeable of his writings, so I’m surprised that you would not understand how he was writing it.

    Now, if you have a bone to pick and you don’t like him, then stop reading his things! I guess I have never been one to brood and/or bash people I like, I prefer action (in this case where they are not actually intruding on my life, I ignore them, if he were say… in my guild, action would mean I’d confront him).

    @Achloryn:

    I have stated all along that Frost wasn’t right, but I just don’t understand the massive jerk-knee reaction to jump right to “Dude’s an asshat.” I guess I could personally see myself in his shoes in a heroic. I’ve been impatient before, and I don’t think myself such a “douchy” person. Sure, we all do stupid things and the way he conveyed his story does not seem to have made many people happy, but it really is more of a-as you said- “Frost assumed they’d come with him” “They assumed frost would go with them” miscommunication and it happens.

    Such anger for this is exactly why I guess I don’t understand Ragequits in raids. Instead of getting really really angry and pointing out how big a tool he is and has been and always will be, why can’t we point out his flaw, state a better option for him to do, then move on? (This is getting to the point of derailing I think) How does saying such things about him make you any less douchy or an asshat than he himself?

    AGAIN, FROST WASN’T RIGHT. (I just wanted to make that clear)

  17. #17 by theerivs on November 4, 2010 - 2:36 pm

    *shakes head* silly huntards. LOL!

  18. #18 by jeffo on November 4, 2010 - 3:36 pm

    I find it interesting that almost all of the commenters on his blog supported him.

    Honestly, it seems fault goes all around on that. The communication was poor between the party members. Still not a good way to go about it. It reminds me of a priest who did not like how long it was taking us to get organized for an Onyxia pull. He ran into the room, pulled, died and dropped.

  19. #19 by Ambrosine on November 4, 2010 - 4:27 pm

    @Turiel – Everyone can be an asshat from time to time. But how it’s handled (and talked about afterwards) has a lot to do with it, too, and I’ve gotten an impression of “lol I know I was an ass but whatever” from the whole thing.

  20. #20 by Lique on November 4, 2010 - 5:02 pm

    Honestly, I agree with Turiel. Sure Frost was a little stupid for doing what he did, but by no means an asshat about the whole thing. When it was asked to do the extra bosses and he replied that he couldn’t, no one said anything against it. Last word is socially assumed to be the plan if no one else says anything. I don’t know who was leading the group, but whoever it was should have said, “Yes, let’s do the extra bosses” or “No, he doesn’t have time.” (And honestly, in OK, it doubles the length of the instances to do the two extra bosses. And that’s IF the puggers have any clue how to run the extra bosses since a lot of people just don’t run them any more.) The fact that two of the puggers came with him is an indication that that rule was true. I don’t know why the tank went with the other guy unless they’d worked something out between them or because maybe the tank missed Frost’s comment.

    When they realized he wasn’t with them, they didn’t take any account of his feelings on the subject. When he asked them to clarify whether or not they were doing the extra bosses all he got in response was “hunter, get over here” as if he’s not a real person with real needs and opinions of his own. That’s where I see the real douchery.

    Pulling the boss was dumb, but if he had managed it successfully the other puggers would have gotten just as much credit as he did. They’d even have been able to finish their extra bosses. Perhaps not with a fifth person, but it looks like they didn’t care what he needed at all and they likely didn’t need a fifth person to do it.

  21. #21 by Achloryn on November 4, 2010 - 5:10 pm

    @Turiel, I think the big issue at hand isn’t that Frostheim acted improperly… i’m pretty sure no one (here at any rate) is defending how he acted. We’ve all done stupid shit for one reason or another in heroic pugs. I think the problem lies in the fact that SO many hunters look up to him for information because he is on WHU and because he’s on WowInsider and so on and so forth, and he is exceptionally unapologetic about what he did. He even defended his actions in his post by saying things like “they pissed me off just enough”. He doesn’t feel like he did anything wrong, and even tried to make it sound cool. If this is the kind of person up-and-coming hunters are looking to for advice and so forth then there’s going to be a lot of hunters wanting to go around soloing heroic bosses in spite of the group’s wishes “because it’s cool”. It’s not a trend i’d like to see starting in 5 mans, especially going into cataclysm.

  22. #22 by Turiel on November 5, 2010 - 12:32 am

    @Achloryn:

    Fair enough. I understand that point in respect that if he is a role model, the far-reaching consequences of this post could possibly make the impressionable to become worse even than Frost is claiming. That’d not be fun in any way.

    I guess personally I’m not one to care as much about “role-models” as much as I was raised with the ability to think for myself, and that we get to choose our role models. As a fan of professional golf I personally harbor no ill will towards Tiger Woods for his actions as of late, though he is an incredible moron to do what he did. I know that his actions won’t effect my way of thinking, and those who are impressionable around me will be instructed that people make mistakes, and your role models can cease to be your role models if their actions no longer align with what you previously looked up at them for.

    So yeah, it’s not cool to think of an army of nooblet hunters invading our instances (stealin our purplez, cause EVERYTHING is hunter loot), but then again I firmly believe that those nooblet hunters would be a thorn in my side regardless if their idol is Frost, or some other Huntard. My faith in the average person is limited and I believe that a good hunter would see past it, and a bad hunter would be bad regardless (not to be mistaken with a hunter who is new, and uninformed…).

    @jeffo: I believe that *generally speaking* commenters will agree with a blogger- Those who get so infuriated with a post sometimes think “Why post on his blog and give him the time of day?” “He has the power to moderate/delete my post, I won’t give him that authority over me.” and many other things (or even leave the site before finishing the read). If someone absolutely LOVES a post, they’ll probably tell the author about how awesome they are, in hopes of getting more content in like manner. It doesn’t surprise me that people generally agree with him. (also, Rilgon pointed out earlier that Frost may-I say may because I am unfamiliair if this is true or not-moderate/delete his posts, so you may only be seeing what he wants you to see?)

  23. #23 by Aoladari on November 5, 2010 - 5:34 am

    Honestly, the reason the group died is probably a zone wide debuff that hits for massive damage if you’re not in range of the boss. Similiar to many raid bosses. I’ve seen this in 5-mans before so it’s not uncommon. Hard to believe that no one else thought if it though.

    So to get his entire group killed by way of engaging the last boss was pretty much an asshat thing to do.

    Now I will say there are things I will not do as a healer, and some make me look asshatty. I will not run after the DPS mage who runs off alone for the gauntlet part of CoT: CoS just to “heal him”, I will let his ass run off and die if the rest of the group is not ready to go. In short (and I hate to use this person’s quote because I really don’t like him) I don’t heal stupid.

  24. #24 by Phelps on November 5, 2010 - 12:06 pm

    I’m astonished by this idea of “majority rules” being the issue here. It wasn’t even majority rules when they got to the boss. If you read his story, just the optional-boss whiner and the tank ran off in that direction. The other three were at the last boss. That the other two let the tank bully them into turning around and doing a boss that they didn’t intend doesn’t mean that FH should have as well.

  25. #25 by Cervidae on November 5, 2010 - 12:13 pm

    I’ve been a longtime reader of Frost’s blog, but I’ve been getting more and more disappointed in his attitude. He’s my go-to site for hunter info, but between this situation, and the way he tends to treat other hosts on his podcasts… I’m probably going to be seeking out another good resource before Cataclysm.

  26. #26 by Ambrosine on November 5, 2010 - 12:48 pm

    Why is “asshattery begets asshattery, cut it the fuck out” so hard to grasp? 4srs?

  27. #27 by *vlad* on November 5, 2010 - 1:42 pm

    I don’t know Frost, and I have no opinions on whether he is or should be a paragon of the Hunter community like some people think, but in my opinion, he acted selfishly. Is it the end of the world? No. That is not the issue. I’m sure he is just a normal guy, but in this case he was in the wrong. I’ve seen a lot worse, but it was selfish behaviour nevertheless.
    The ‘they didn’t listen to him therefore they deserved it’ argument is such crap, and not only that, they don’t get to tell their side of the story, so let’s not take everything he described as gospel.
    Anyway, how long does it take to kill the mushroom boss? 2 minutes? Come on, this isn’t Sunken Temple we are talking about, those 2 bosses should have taken 5 minutes max.

    Whenever I run Heroics, if people say they want certain bosses, then we do those bosses; what’s the problem? If you don’t have time then leave, simple as that.
    If you are talking about Achievements, that is something else, they can take a lot of time and lead to endless wipes if people don’t know how, but again, no need to act badly if you don’t want to do them – just say no and leave if they insist. This is the big crux – people should act better in pugs. End of Story.

  28. #28 by Chirri on November 5, 2010 - 9:07 pm

    …craaaap. I logged out and now it erased what I’d already typed. :(

    Anyway, basically what I said was – he became an asshat the moment he published the post on his blog. If he’d kept it to himself, made it sort of a joke within his guild or amongst friends, that’s fine. He’d learned that the boss spawns adds on the whole party, regardless of where they are in the instance, he was amused, he was moving on.

    But instead, as something of a well known figure within the WoW Blogging community, he relates the story of him being impatient and being a jerk to the masses. He’s setting a horrible example for how people should behave if they were *stupid* and didn’t allow for the chance that the group would want to do an optional boss, when he needed to get out of the instance quickly. Not only does he post it, he basically blames the 4 other people in his group. There are 5 people in a group, and a group functions as a unit. Which of them weren’t functioning as a unit? It wasn’t the other 4.

    You’re just a generic jerk when you misbehave in private. You become an asshat when you go public with it and pretend (believe?) that you being a jerk is acceptable. You become a many-flavored-waffle when you’re a public figure within a large community and publicize your misbehavior while pretending (believing?) that what you did was actually an alright sort of thing to do.

  29. #29 by tytalus on November 5, 2010 - 11:48 pm

    Re: “Why is “asshattery begets asshattery, cut it the fuck out” so hard to grasp? 4srs?”

    The rest of that hunter’s group could stand to learn that lesson, too. I know it’s not something I would choose to do, typically. Don’t think I ever have. But I also know I’m not perfect, and can be pushed by boneheaded behavior into responding in kind.

    At the same time, with the move to JP it’s not as if quitting robs you of anything super-special like Frost badges.

  30. #30 by Fobok on November 7, 2010 - 3:22 pm

    Frostheim was definitely a jerk in the whole thing, and yes I am losing respect for him. But, really, as you said, asshattery begets asshattery. He was responding to much worse than he intentionally gave. If he truly didn’t know the insanity effect would go zone-wide (and how would he? Who’s ever been in that situation before?) it’s no worse, in my view, than not healing someone who’s being a jerk. (And seriously, stories of that are common all over the place.)

    Not so bad: The tank should have announced his decision to go do the optional bosses, and he shouldn’t have run that far ahead of the group.
    Worse: “Hunter, get over here.” It’s not like his name wouldn’t have been clearly written on the screen, and to be ordered about like a slave? I would have left group right there. The word please exists for a reason. Heck, in his place I’d even have accepted ‘pls’.
    Worst: Groupmates let him pull aggro and then left to join the tank. The fact that he was able to handle it in no way stops this being asshattery. Especially when he was pulling the mob off of them to begin with.

  31. #31 by mister Bunny on November 7, 2010 - 6:43 pm

    I had a situation like this the other day. I was healing a group in Gundrak. We killed the first two bosses and the tank said, “I’d like to do a full clear”. I said sure, as did a ret pally who was doing about 8K dps. A hunter and a dk said nothing. So we went towards Eck…when we were about there, we noticed that the DK was dead. He started to scream for a res. Meanwhile the hunter was apparently AFK at the remnants of the elemental boss.

    So we waited for them both: I saw no reason to run back to them. Nor did the tank (a druid) or the pally. The hunter got back from his afk and told us he’d wait for us to kill Eck as he didn’t need him. At that the three of us who were, ya know, doing the heroic decided to vote kick the other two folks, who apparently saw no reason to do anything.

    We kicked them and I told them we did not need to replace them with more awful dps. We easily finished the instance.

    My point? If you are in a group, then no matter how uber you are, if you aren’t the tank, don’t wander off. Stay with the tank. If the heals has any working brain cells (and most do), they’ll be with the tank. So don’t be That Guy who wanders off.

    As far as “calling someone, ‘hunter’ is rude”, you realize that with the number of people who put stupid ascii characters in the name, a solid default IS calling someone by their class. Unless you are a serious RP’er, does it matter that much? does it make ok the causing of repair bills for people who thru no fault of their own got caught up in someone’s jerk-fest?

    Finally, it would be nice if heroics were a democracy, but they’re not. I defer to the tank, when I’m healing or DPS. If I’m the tank we’ll do optional bosses, and I won’t always state that: I’ll just assume that unless someone is really mentally deficient, they know enough to follow the tank.

  32. #32 by Lique on November 8, 2010 - 12:02 pm

    @Fobok – I personally see the “tank decides not to tell anyone he’s going to do the optional bosses” as a lot more than “No so bad.” If they’d said that, Frostheim could have said, “Hey yeah, I definitely don’t have time for that, I’m going to jump and let you get someone who can.” They didn’t. I personally find that to be the worst offense, but since lack of communication is a particularly sensitive area to me, it’s not really surprising.

    @All the people who think Frostheim is the ultimate asshat: Can you honestly tell me you’ve never done anything stupid or mean in a group full of tards? I’m not sure there’s anyone who can honestly say that. He is cocky, yes. That means he thought he could pull a boss and win. It does not make him an asshat. I don’t know of a single person who REALLY always listens to the tank in a pug group. I’ve had some really retarded tanks that I wouldn’t trust with a stick of gum. The fact that most of the group got the idea that they were just going to hit the last boss and be done means that the default state of “trust the tank” either isn’t true in general or this group already had enough issues with their tank that they didn’t trust him for this run.

    Also… it’s pretty hard to get to the last boss without running into at least one group of mobs. Did the tank help them clear those mobs and then turn completely around and run the other direction? Kind of seems like it. That would be terribly misleading to any group and as this group already had bad communication, it’s ridiculous to blame the whole fiasco on Frostheim’s “asshatery.” Sure, he might be plenty arrogant in his blog, but that doesn’t really get him labeled as an asshat with the vehemence that has been expressed in this entire section of comments.

    So why are we all freaking out about this? Have we had someone do this to us? I don’t know. If we did, would we be hating on them this hard? To me, it doesn’t seem like it. I’d be much more likely to respond with “Uh… where did these shadow people come from? Fuck, I’m retarded and let myself die because I was distracted. How did that happen anyway? Oh, the hunter’s trying to solo the last boss? Well, that was kind of jerky of him, but the fact that he got to insanity mode is kind of impressive.” But seriously: why is everyone so upset about this? It’s almost coming out like he killed your dog, the way you’re expressing bile at his decisions. Have you had people tell you you’re awful/horrible/a blight on society because you’re well-known in WoW circles? Cause that’s the only reason I can see this kind of bile being understandable. I get why Amber’s upset, but a lot of the rest of you, I just don’t understand.

  33. #33 by Nikola on November 9, 2010 - 4:00 am

    It’s simple. They tried to force him to waste time, he didn’t take it. He did nothing wrong.

  34. #34 by Escobar on November 9, 2010 - 12:00 pm

    “It’s simple. They tried to force him to waste time, he didn’t take it. He did nothing wrong.”

    Wait, wait, wait…”forced”? Guns were brandished, hostages were taken? That actually didn’t happen at all. He had a choice, and he chose the crappier road.

    I think we can agree that miscommunication happened all around. And I think we can also agree that a less antagonistic way to handle it might have been to say, sorry, I really don’t have time for this, I’m going to have to go. Deciding to solo the boss had an unintended result, and that part sucked, but I think most people’s issue is more with the attitude that he displayed about the whole thing, as opposed to the thing itself. Yes, he titled it about being a bit of an ass…but the language with which he tells the story comes off as ridiculously cocky. Those guys sucked, and they were just holding him back. And they dared call him “hunter”.

    I’m sure each of us has done something either intentionally or unintentionally douchey for one reason or another. I have most definitely walked out on groups that have exhausted my patience, which, in your average 5-man is no small feat. But as was stated before, it’s one thing to tell the story in gchat, or over coffee with someone that you work with who also plays (been there, done that), but turning it into an internet brag-fest poorly disguised as a mea culpa…lame.

  35. #35 by Brangwen on November 9, 2010 - 4:59 pm

    I have been musing about this over on Righteous Orbs.
    There was something about this post that didn’t sit right with me, and Chas’ post helped me clarify it… and I think my question is this:

    Is the issue not about BEHAVING to a higher standard (due to being a public figure – which I don’t actually believe he is within WoW at large and ingame), but BLOGGING to a higher standard? It seems that perhaps the topic was a poor choice, the tone it was written in was lazy and assuming of an audience readership who understand… Had he not written about it would anyone know that he was a dick in a PuG? Had he written about it in a different tone of voice, would you have reacted so strongly?

    I admire your passion on the topic, Amber :D

  36. #36 by Lujanera on November 12, 2010 - 9:42 am

    From the post:

    “If you are a public figure, it is my belief that you have a certain amount of rseponsibilty to totally not be an ass. After all, whether you want to or not, you are setting an example.”

    Where is Charles Barkley when you need him?

  37. #37 by jmkiser on November 12, 2010 - 1:35 pm

    Where in the world do all of you get off telling a person that he’s beholden to not be what YOU THINK is an asshat?

    Whatever “community” you guys think you have is minimal and useless at best. FH or anyone for that matter doesn’t have to answer to you or any ridiculous standard you think they should live at.

    The fact that you’re so quick to hang someone out to dry publicly just because you don’t think they’re doing what YOU think they should be doing shows the problems with YOUR character not his.

    ffs

  38. #38 by Arkaneena on November 15, 2010 - 3:23 pm

    I hate to say this, but I think Frostheim was wrong not for what he did, but for not communicating his intention to the group. The group might have thought he was stuck in combat and would either wait, die/ run back, or head in their direction. Some groups decide things democratically others are more chaotic and have other methods. Frostheim decided democracy was not for him, fine no problem. I don’t take issue with his actions.

    What I took issue with if anything was his attitude, and his communication or lack thereof. As a representative of the hunter community he comes off poorly in the blog. If worded differently it might have come off as ok if you do this boss solo it could/will wipe the other group members. Don’t do that it’s bad mm’kay. Instead he presents his “well I just decided” without talking to anyone to do this, and “they got a repair bill and learnt I am teh best evar.” However I don’t think he intended to come off that way. That said it was the first of his posts I have read.

    And then you get well it was said best in Cool Hand Luke:
    What we’ve got here is… failure to communicate. Some men you just can’t reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it… well, he gets it. I don’t like it any more than you men.

    I have done crazy stuff in heroics before like pulling the first 3 bosses in UP. It gets hilarious when the healer gets stuck on the altar and everyone is fighting Skadi, and Palehoof at the same time. We ended up going back and rezzing her, but we did it. We wanted to see if we could do all the bosses, but once we learned the ritual would go off either way we decided it was a bad idea. We had pugs, but we warned them what we were doing and they went with it. The difference was communication. That made it fun, because we let them in on the fun. Sure we almost wiped, but we had fun trying.

    Frostheim could have said I am gonna try and solo this boss. I think I can do it, you guys go nuts. And I think then he would not be a dbag, just saying.

  39. #39 by Lique on November 15, 2010 - 4:17 pm

    Agree completely with Arkeena.

    Communication is what his entire party failed at. He failed at it too. I guess that makes me have less sympathy for his communication failure than I did before. (Though I always give more sympathy than I should to the “well, he did it first, so it wasn’t such a big deal when I did it” crowd than I should. :( ) The only communication that happened in the party was “hey, can we do extra bosses” and “hey, can we not”. It ended there.

  40. #40 by Anonymous on November 17, 2010 - 9:47 pm

    “I know that my behavior refelcts on my guild.”
    Reflects*

    “No, sweetheart, that’s not how it works.”
    Condescending tone. Boring. Argument invalid.

  1. In defense of Frostheim « sunmurma
  2. Random Acts of Friday II « Achtung Panzercow
  3. Publicity, Responsibility and Petitio Principii – Chas’ Take on Frostgate « Righteous Orbs
  4. Mis-behaving » Parry On
  5. Course correction: thoughts on recognizing my own shortcomings, the nature of public discussion, and the focus of future posts « sunmurma
  6. Some Link Love and a Cleanup in Aisle Five « Bubble Hearth
  7. Things I Shouldn’t Have to Say « I Like Bubbles
  8. In defense of Frostheim « Dischordant Forms

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