Not Hardcore But Not Failtastic

Not Harcore But Not Failtastic: Walking the Line Between Soul Sucking Progression Raids and Casual Wipefests
The Semi-Casual Guild’s Cry of Please, For The Love of God, Just Don’t Be A Tardbucket

We all know the stereotypes.  Hardcore raiding guilds are demanding min-maxers, requiring their raiders to raid several nights a week, and generally invest a massive amount of time into raiding.  Casual guilds contain fine examples of players like DKs who show up in spell damage gear.

Guilds like Brotherhood of Oblivion, who walk the “semi-casual” line, often find themselves in an interesting standpoint.  We only raid 2-3 nights a week.  We like progression, but we don’t care about server firsts.  We have some excellent players, but also don’t mind taking the time to sculpt a nooblet into a worthwhile raider. 

Sounds great, doesn’t it?

Problems erupt during raid time.  We have a full raid, except for one player.  We’re all ready to go but we’re waiting on him because he forgot to buy ammo beforehand and he takes FOREVER.  There’s none on the AH so someone has to log onto an alt to make the stuff he wants.  Or we’re waiting between pulls, because someone didn’t repair their gear beforehand and 3 kills in their gear is breaking.  Or people are talking needlessly on vent during a boss, and crucial information is lost in the chatter. 

It’s the little things.  “As long as the boss dies, it doesn’t matter.”


I want you to go here.  Read that. 

Back?  Good.  Let me continue.

The building frustration from people mucking things up out of laziness, ignorance, and/or stupidity is what drives me-and other people-to lose it.  I don’t want to raid 5x a week anymore, but for fucks sake, I want to clear the content and do it without having to compensate for you being a tardbucket every week.  Are we going to make every hunter spec survival to do the most DPS?  No.  We want you to play whatever spec makes you happy.  But we want you to not suck at it.  We want you to do a bit of research, put forth a bit of effort, and show up and give us your best.  Wiping repeatedly because you can’t be arsed to go read a strat isn’t fun for anybody.  We’re not here to hand you epixs for being a failure.  We’re here to enjoy ourselves. 

So yes, if you could stand to improve yourself (can’t we all?) and you refuse to, your leadership might get pissy.  Yes, if an officer is trying to call out important shit on vent and they keep getting run over by someone random guildie blathering about god knows what, they might tell you to clear vent.  And by the third of fourth time of doing that they might well no longer be polite about it.  If you blow up the raid because seeing this:

<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>
<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>
<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>
<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>
<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>
<<  –   THADDIUS  + >>

on your screen didn’t get the point across, you might not get to come next week.  Etc, etc, etc.  So I beg of you, plead of you: don’t be a tardbucket and hold us back.  That’s what separates us from the infamous casual guilds of fail.  We’re all excellent players who can progress well, even without heavy raid schedules and demands.  Please, for the love of all that is holy, start acting like it.

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  1. #1 by Holy Dueg! on March 17, 2009 - 3:46 pm

    No excuse to be a tardbucket, the content is scaled specifically to be easy and let everyone raid. Even stupid people should be able to handle it with minimal forethought and attention span. If you’re failing, it’s not that you’re not trying hard enough, it’s that you’re not trying at all.

  2. #2 by Khaeli on March 17, 2009 - 4:38 pm

    Well having just been shown the door in a casual raiding guild because I had the audacity to ask people to try, I’m now back in a hardcore raiding guild. Hell, I was already raiding 5 nights a week in the casual guild, simply because it was taking that many nights to clear Naxx, OS, and Malygos. :(

    We shall see if I can handle the hardcore… it’s been a number of years since I’ve been subject to that kind of scrutiny. But honestly, I just couldn’t take it another minute, raiding with people who were so apathetic about their performance but so damn greedy about their epics.

  3. #3 by Ambrosyne on March 17, 2009 - 4:48 pm

    @Khaeli: BoO is not, thankfully, as bad as all that. We just have the 16 year old hunter who can’t remember to buy ammo before hand, and of course, our MT healing holy priests. And the guy who thinks he’s assistant raid leader when he’s not. The darling boomkin who didn’t even know where her debuffs were isn’t normally a raider, so while I quietly /facepalm in her direction, she doesn’t bother me.

    Last night in Naxx25 we were rough around the edges, and that inspired this post. Mostly, people need to STFU on vent. Gwuh.

  4. #4 by Brent on March 17, 2009 - 5:05 pm

    Personally I think you need a description change. I’ve hated the “Casual raiding guild” description because theres:

    ‘Casual raiding’ guild – We don’t care what happens, our aim is to raid Mr Bigglesworth each week. Everything else is a bonus.

    ‘Casual’ raiding guild – We do everything just like a hardcore raiding guild but less raid nights and lower attendance requirements etc. (Note there *are* nice hardcore raiding guilds)

    I prefer to call my guild a Medium Intensity Raiding Guild. We’re 3 nights a week, but with all the requirements and effort of the more ‘hardcore’ guilds. Everything enchanted, full consumables etc, and a ‘get out of the fire’ mentality, which has put us on the Twilight Vanquisher rank.

    So theres:

    High Intensity Raiding Guilds
    Medium Intensity Raiding Guilds
    Low Intensity Raiding Guilds
    Casual Guilds

    There’s no such thing as a Casual Raiding Guild.

  5. #5 by Armagon on March 17, 2009 - 10:43 pm

    > the content is scaled specifically to be easy and let everyone raid
    The content is scaled specifically to make decent raiders be horrible players now. Not “we’re so bored we fuck around till we wipe in Kara” but “I don’t know how to not stand in fire anymore” :(
    No challenge makes people lose their reflexes and will to progress.

  6. #6 by kyrilean on March 18, 2009 - 9:00 am

    Response started to get long so doing a post on this tomorrow.

    “Casual guilds contain fine examples of players like DKs who show up in spell damage gear.” had me giggling like a school girl by the way. :)

  7. #7 by Ambrosyne on March 18, 2009 - 9:18 am

    @Brent: It’s a good idea, but I’m not sure what most people would think to stumble across a “medium intensity” guild. I want to say we’re “hardcore 3 nights a week” or something, instead. /muses

    @Armagon: If it was THAT easy, we could just drag the tardbuckets through. But no, they’re wiping us on H Thaddius. We haven’t cleared all content yet, can’t they wait to be stupid until it’s on farm? Geez.

  8. #8 by Perrin on March 18, 2009 - 6:21 pm

    TBH, call yourselves a hardcore guild. No guild currently is raiding more than a few nights a week, because if they’re one of the old uber hardcore guilds, they’ll be clearing all 25 man content in 1 night, and probably all the 10man content in another. My guild is a 3 night a week hardcore guild, but we’re currently doing 1 night as Naxx with an early mark, and 1 night of Sarth3D and Maly with an early mark, or if we get excited (like last week) clear BC raid instances for achievements. Got Archimonde the other day.

  9. #9 by HoHo on March 19, 2009 - 7:38 am

    “Casual guilds contain fine examples of players like DKs who show up in spell damage gear.”

    Funny fact:
    My L69 dk got a nice quest reward bracers that had tons of spelldamage and strength and it was a huge upgrade over the old bracers with less than half the strength and no other stats :)

    “Hardcore raiding guilds are demanding min-maxers, requiring their raiders to raid several nights a week, and generally invest a massive amount of time into raiding”

    I’m in a relatively hardcore guild. At the moment we clear every 25-man raid in one night in ~4-4.5h. During progression it’s of course many more nights but not more than 5 nights a week 4h per night. I know a few guilds that had a requirement that you had to be able to get at minimum two weeks of playing time whenever new content was made available. That meant taking time off from work/school and raid for 16+h per day until you cleared pretty much everything.

    “Are we going to make every hunter spec survival to do the most DPS? No. We want you to play whatever spec makes you happy. But we want you to not suck at it.”

    My guild is pretty much the same. We don’t force people to respec just because on paper something works better. Chances are that people will actually perform worse as they haven’t had nearly as much practice on the other spec.

    “Wiping repeatedly because you can’t be arsed to go read a strat isn’t fun for anybody”

    Another interesting difference in our guild is that we don’t learn any boss tactics before we have managed to kill them. We make our own strategies. Just following some guide doesn’t seem interesting or nearly as challenging for us than trying to figure out the fight ourselves. Sure, it will mean progress is a bit slower but at least we feel as we actually accomplished something. Raiding for us is not for gear, it’s mostly for beating challenges and to lesser extent getting bosses down before others :)

  10. #10 by Lewis on March 19, 2009 - 9:30 am

    Our multi-guild raid probably falls into the “semi-casual” category. We only 25-man raid two nights a week, three hours a night, that’s it. There’s an informal 10-man that runs two more nights (Naxx one, Sarth/Maly the other) but I’m not part of that one. In those six hours of 25-man raiding, we clear Naxx and kill Sarth (+2 once, +1 a bunch of times) and will be working on Malygos once we get faster at clearing Naxx. We have hard-and-fast stop times that we don’t go past. We don’t raid much, but when we do raid, we bring pain and we bring it hard.

    Awesome post. It isn’t how MUCH you raid, it’s how much focus and commitment you bring when you do it. You don’t have to be hardcore to show up prepared, repaired, stocked, locked, and cocked to your Naxx run. You just have to be willing to put forth the effort to succeed.

  11. #11 by Oriniwen on March 19, 2009 - 11:21 am

    My guild, Impossibilium is “hardcore results with a casual feel”. It’s refreshing to see someone else out there who falls where we do on the spectrum between “raid till you die” and “raiding cause it’s something to do.”

    I linked to this post on my guild forums, I hope that’s alright.

  12. #12 by Shanon on March 25, 2009 - 12:17 am

    My guild raids 3 days / week 25 man raids but as a raidleader I find myself raiding 1-3 raids / day. >.> There is a joy of teaching nooblets to play. *le sigh* Sometimes being in a hardcore raid guild would be soo much easier than our “semi hardcore.. with a casual feel”. (before you ask, I raid with 2 characters making it possible to lead multiple 10 man raids)

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