Why Instating DKP and Being an Officer Sucks

Oh, lord.

So we tried instituting DKPthis week.  We expected it to need some ironing out, and to slow things down a bit while we got the hang of it, but we were not expecting the absolute explosion of clusterfuck that it turned into.  The fact that the addon we were using exploded mid-raid and lost EVERYTHING did not help. 

There was much cussing in officer’s chat, let me tell you.  And maybe some weeping.   Late last night we discussed all of the massive flaws in our sytem, tossed some things out, debated how to handle Blizzard’s shitty itemization for boomkins with our loot rules, and decided that everyone was going to be unhappy with us no matter what we did.


I am especially anxious about all of this, because I am our unofficial PR Officer.  I consider it to be my job to run interference for our more cranky officers, to bring the concerns of the raid to Mach, and to catch the rumblings of displeasure before they erupt into /gquits.  While Mach and Atrop and Zoja are in /o handling the DKP mess, I was in /r going “Uh, sorry we are a massive pile of fail atm, we didn’t expect this magnitude of clusterfuck, please be patient with us while we learn to tell our ass from a hole in the ground.”

While those words aren’t exact, the tone was similar.  I have no trouble going lol, we fucked up. ‘Cause…dude, we totally did.   

We’ll hash out the last few details tonight, and reveal our Less Fucked Up DKP System for our fresh Naxx25 on Wednesday.  I hope.

I actually don’t mind being an officer, at all.  It can be stressful, but as long as I have some tools at hand to fix the problems that land in my lap, I’m usually okay.

Now I need to go make an Official Post on the forums explaining WTF is going on…


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  1. #1 by Holy Dueg! on March 24, 2009 - 10:17 am

    I recommend making a thread that lets the players explain their opinions on DKP, but don’t let the officers comment on it. That way your regular raiders feel like they at least have a voice in the system. You might also get some good suggestions from it. Although that could backfire if a flame war starts, but hopefully your people are mature enough to keep that from happening.

  2. #2 by Oriniwen on March 24, 2009 - 11:44 am

    I’d also suggest ditching DKP and using EPGP instead :) I found it solved a lot of the QQ issues that we had with DKP.

    (But that’s just my guild!)

  3. #3 by kyrilean on March 24, 2009 - 11:45 am

    Flame war! FLAME WAR!!

    (I’ve been listening to a couple of the more vocal guys on vent…)

    Anyway, was it a mess? Yup. Did I care? Nope. Why? I GOT 2 FREAKING UPGRADES!!! LMAO!

    No seriously, I was asked to bring my priest instead of my pally. Mach asked me if I cared. Nope. I want to raid. Actually it was a little more fun with my priest cuz healing has been really boring in our guild. We have good healers and if you aren’t fast…no heals. :)

    That said, I know you guys are working on it. Maybe coming from a leadership role I can see and appreciate that where others can’t. The snide remarks in raid chat were inappropriate and I’m glad Zoja finally said something cuz it was starting to piss me off.

    With regards to your DKP comment regarding my alt. Yes I was asked to bring an alt and maybe there should be some sort of allowance on the DKP side since we’re keeping them toon separate, but I know nothing will make everyone happy and even without my pally’s DKP I still got two upgrades, so why worry?

    Gear comes to those that wait.

    And thanks for doing it all.

  4. #4 by Ambrosyne on March 24, 2009 - 11:55 am

    @Oriniwen: I suggested EpGP awhile back, and as it’s not what we’re using, I’m assuming Mach decided otherwise.


    @Kyr: Ironically some of the mess probably came about because Mach wanted to talk about it before we implemented his idea, and Josh and I blew him off because sex > discussing DKP. XD

    Then again, it should likely be discussed sooner than “the night before the raid”.

    I love Steve but I’m definitely the most organized of the lot, let me tell ya. We talked a lot last night (we’re ditching the splitting DKP, woo!), and will talk more tonight (blaaaaah, don’t interrupt my heroics!). I’ll address the alt thing, since well…er…we ASKED you to bring the priest.

    And yeah, we could probably lighten up on the healing some. Druids trivialize content! :P Not to mention Yarp and I favor FoL a bit more than you do from what I’ve seen, so we tend to snipe your heals. >.>


  5. #5 by Kestrel on March 24, 2009 - 12:25 pm

    Just some input for you, Ambro: We use DKP in The Oroborus. Generally, no loot drama (although I wish the loot whores would recognize when an upgrade would benefit the raid a lot more if it went to someone with less DKP than they, but that’s another issue).

    First, our guild ranks include Alternate, Social, Raid Main. An alt is just that. A Social is a main, but hasn’t committed to meeting our raid requirements (3x/week), or is a newer member. Socials may raid, they earn DKP at the same rate as Raid Mains, but Raid Mains get priority on bidding.

    So, the order for bids is: Raid Main, Social (main), alt spec (Boomkin bidding on leather Tank gear, for example). Bidding on alt spec gear is a minimum of 20 DKP since it doesn’t allow us to put an Abyss Crystal in the bank.

    If a Raid Main is asked to bring an Alt, that Alt bids as a Raid Main. (DKP are held per account, not per character.)

    Minimum bid (because that’s how our add-on works) is 5 DKP, with bid increments in multiples of 5 DKP. If someone wins for 5 DKP, the cost is reduced to zero. (Exception: Alt spec is always a minimum of 20 DKP.)

    For classes bidding on armor that is not the highest armor type they can use, there is a 25 percent DKP premium. E.g., a boomkin bids on cloth gear and wins for 100 DKP, that item will cost 125 DKP. Same for a DK bidding on Mail, or a Shaman bidding on leather.

    The basic rule we have is, if you have the DKP, you can bid (assuming, of course, the item is usable by your class). However, we don’t allow stupid stuff: If it’s a ranged weapon, for instance, Hunters get first dibs. If no hunters want the item, THEN warriors and rogues are free to bid.

    All that said…I’d like us to take a look at EPGP, at least. For our guild, I am NOT in favor of a loot council: I don’t think there are enough of us who are knowledgeable enough about all classes to be effective (and there is WAY too much reliance on just EJ and MaxDPS by the RL, for my taste).

  6. #6 by Melissa on March 24, 2009 - 12:39 pm

    I do hear EPGP is a good system and an alternative to that is zero sum DKP. You basically have to participate in the raids to earn points. The total amount of DKP spent is divided up amongst the players for the night, distributed and subtracted from the winning bidders total. In this system, if you are at the top of the list and “purchase” 3 items that night, your DKP will drop quickly while everyone elses will rise. Only on progression nights is a constant DKP awarded to all players. I think zero sum addresses some issues people have with players who stay at the top indefinitely by rotating the leaderboard. The person who bought those rings last week may not be able to afford a weapon this week.

  7. #7 by Stern on March 24, 2009 - 1:30 pm

    Here’s how mine goes: An items drops, roll on it. An item multiple classes use (say a tier token or something gobs of people need), have a representative of each class roll. The roll order from highest to lowest determines the class rotation for the item. People in that class roll for the item itself.

    Let’s say we get an issue where a person “needs” a rather large amount of epics for an “offspec that gets specced into at the drop of a hat”. In that case each epic looted has the lootee donating an epic shard to the bank as reimbursement.

    In a twist of irony, though, I must admit that there’s been a bit of drama over gear. People are trying to give it away simply because they don’t want an item due to stats. “Ew, it’s got spirit, you take it. Rogues need spirit, right? Get cheered up and you hit harder or something?”

  8. #8 by Ambrosyne on March 24, 2009 - 1:31 pm

    @Kestrel: I’ll pass that along to Steve. :) <3

  9. #9 by kyrilean on March 24, 2009 - 2:10 pm

    @ Amber – I don’t think you favor FoL more than me, but I suspect you guys are a little faster or those damn druids HoTs are topping everyone off. Most of my heals are still FoL, but I use HL a lot because it’s only then when anyone needs a heal. :)

    @ Kestrel – ClassLoot is an excellent addon to help you see which classes/specs benefit the most and in what order.

  10. #10 by Lewis on March 24, 2009 - 2:21 pm

    We used to use zero-sum DKP in our 40-man raid back in the day, but when BC came around, the officers gave it up due to the massive logistical headache and went to /random 100 with loot-council moderation. Now we’re using what I think is a very simple and elegant way to handle loot…Suicide Kings.

    At our first raid we randomly seeded two lists, one for T7 bits and one for everything else. When something drops, you whisper the designated loot officer if you want it and whether it’s primary spec or offspec. If you’re the highest person on the list, you get the toy, and you get shoved to the bottom of the list, moving everybody else up one. That’s it. Primary spec gets priority over offspec, but if you take something offspec, it’s still a “suicide,” and sends you to the bottom regardless. If you don’t attend a week, your list position doesn’t change, but people will move up around you so infrequent attendees gradually sift to the bottom. New raiders start at the bottom. The raid officers use an addon to track the list and have a website that shows everybody’s position updated in real-time.

    It’s simple, there’s no heavy math or points or anything to worry about. You either ask for the item and take the chance that you’ll get it and drop to the bottom of the list, or you don’t. It might not work for everybody but it works great for us.

  11. #11 by HP on March 24, 2009 - 6:37 pm

    Oh we had that happen one raid and everyone was pretty patient. An officer gquit as a joke and it erased his epgp =X Still, I think the officers learned to back up all the epgp numbers after that, so there is that.

    Btw, I nominated you for an award!

  12. #12 by Driveby on March 25, 2009 - 9:32 am

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