“Oh but the epics in ToC are better!”


Fuck you!  We’re up to Yoggy for fuck’s sake!  WHY CAN’T WE COMPLETE THE GODS BE DAMNED INSTANCE?  “O noes Yoggy is hard”? 


What the hell are you, a lazy child?  Is the concept for working for epics, or raiding for something other that stupid purple pixels JUST FOR YOU a foreign concept? 




This post brought to you by sick, angry priests who wanted to chew on Ulduar more last night, not do Ony/VoA because, like, only healers and tanks signed up.  No one wants to do the “hard” part of Ulduar, apparently.

, , , , ,

  1. #1 by Euripides on October 6, 2009 - 10:31 am

    Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of the way Blizzard did this patch. They removed any reason to go back into Ulduar (other than achievements and gearing up alts), and replaced it with something much much smaller. ToC can be taken down in much less time than Ulduar.

  2. #2 by Vorian87 on October 6, 2009 - 10:36 am

    regular ToC10 can be taken down in 25-45minutes yes. ToC25 in about an hour or so.

    but regular ToC is not the challenge for current content. it is heroic (aka hard mode) ToC. And for guilds which are not attempting heroic ToC, Ulduar hard modes and end bosses are still quite the challenge.

  3. #3 by Whitebeard on October 6, 2009 - 10:38 am

    If you think thats hard, Im still trying to find people in my guild willing to raid MC (despite past hatred of that place) so I can get a chance of getting thunderfury :/

  4. #4 by Seri on October 6, 2009 - 10:38 am

    Suggestion: Have people sign up by date rather than by raid, and/or change which night you run what on. If getting Yogg down is important to the officers, schedule Yogg for the night you have the most/best sign-ups for.

  5. #5 by Juzaba on October 6, 2009 - 10:40 am

    Haha, we are in the middle of this problem as well. Just had a “guild meeting” which was basically the vent-version of your post, but without the THWACK noises.

    On the other hand, people play according to incentives.

  6. #6 by Koramoor on October 6, 2009 - 10:50 am

    Amber, I could not agree more. I am sick to death of the lameness of ToC and I am pissed that Blizz basically gave players a reason to throw away Ulduar which is by far a better instance. Our 10 man just downed Yogg last week and we had to beg borrow and steal to get people to go. Fail, just straight effing fail. And the fact that I get to run the same 5 bosses at least 3 times if not 4 a week now, just awesome… way to go blizz…

  7. #7 by Celaeno on October 6, 2009 - 10:54 am

    I’ve been thinking it’s kind of weird that a lot of members pug raids all week and don’t sign up for guild runs. We could probably do 25s if people ran with the guild. /facepalm

    Though I guess scheduling probably figures in as well.

  8. #8 by kyrilean on October 6, 2009 - 11:10 am

    @Celaeno – Ironically I said the same thing in my rant earlier today.

    I think it has more to do with:

    1) Like Vorian and Euripedes said, you can do ToC much quicker than Ulduar. And God knows what the average player’s attention span is like…

    2) The other issue is that the gear in ToC is “better” and why work hard for gear in Ulduar when it’s easier to get “better” gear in ToC.

    3) In addition to that, too many people raid for loot rather than raid for the challenge.

  9. #9 by Koramoor on October 6, 2009 - 11:18 am

    I really think that Blizz under-tuning most all of WoTLK has led to a lot more “loot-driven” players in “more than casual but less than hardcore” guilds.

    As a GM of one of those guilds it makes my life a lot harder when I have to dangle the latest and greatest purple pixels in front of players to get them to show up.

    It seems like the only “progression” most of them care about is the gear score on “WoW Heroes”.

  10. #10 by youyankityoutankit on October 6, 2009 - 11:27 am

    Same problem in our guild. “Ulduar is hard. Ulduar is boring”

  11. #11 by inquatitis on October 6, 2009 - 11:28 am

    And here I thought I was the only person who thought Ulduar should still get prioprity over Onyxia.
    ToC10 is easy, its quick, and can be done in 2 hours.
    Like on an off raiding night.
    Gear score is not progression people, it’s an e-peen meter indicator.

  12. #12 by Koramoor on October 6, 2009 - 11:52 am

    Is the problem too much democracy?

    Would it be easier if the RL/GM just put the smack down and said “If you want to raid with us, we are raiding here tonight”?

    Or would providing direction, leadership, and guidance, just lead to more whining and people not showing up?

  13. #13 by shadowtycho on October 6, 2009 - 11:52 am

    …. quick and dirty solution, make it so that you need to sign up for progression(ulduar) raids to get guild based loot(crusader orbs,patterns) then if they dont show they dont get to benifit from the guilds effort, but it dosen’t interfere with you gearing people up in ToC/ony

    poeple might show up to ulduar just so they can roll on the ony sack of gems or the head or such.
    just a thought…

  14. #14 by Ratshag on October 6, 2009 - 12:05 pm

    I remembers similar issues in the Lady Vashj / Kael’thas vs Hyjal / Black Temple vs Sunwell trash days. Guild management finally settled it by saying “fine! you glubbernuggers go raid where ya wants with some other guild!”

    Hoping yer beatstick works out better.

  15. #15 by Vorian87 on October 6, 2009 - 12:32 pm

    one suggestion would be to have a “progression” of raiding for the week.

    like schedule ulduar for night 1. people who sign up AND come to the ulduar AND stay for the run (barring RL emergencies) then get to go on the guild ToC run on night 2. and then the same thing with VoA and onyxia on night 3. or some mix like that.

    and as someone else mentioned, letting raiders partake of the “guild based loot” such as orbs, patterns etc would be an added intensive.

    just a suggestion :D

  16. #16 by Rhidach on October 6, 2009 - 12:54 pm

    I agree with some of the other commentors–just put your foot down and tell everyone that you’re kill Yogg, and no one gets an invite to ToC unless they helped with Yoggy.

    Although I’m sort of a hypocrite. We haven’t kill Yogg yet, but we’re 4/5 in heroic TOC10. >.>

  17. #17 by Beruthiel on October 6, 2009 - 1:03 pm

    We flat out told people that ToC invites would be based on Ulduar attendance…and we stuck to it. We also let people bring in alts for non-hard mode clears of Ulduar, as we clear to our next HM target, as long as we could do it in the amount of time scheduled for the week. We turned on guild bank repairs for those that stayed on their mains for Ulduar when we let people swap to alts.

    We save “free loot” like Ony and ToC 10 (we run it for easy badges) for nights where we spent the first part of the night bashing our heads agains hard modes.

    It worked well for us so far, and people seem to like how we break up the raid week.

  18. #18 by Kotakh on October 6, 2009 - 1:03 pm

    I still dont understand why we didnt go to Uld last night…we had a lot of healer signed up and enough tank. Who needs dps, most of our healer have dps offspec, it wouldnt have been a great raid comp but i’m sure we could have down Mim and Vez and get some shot at Yogg.

    Anyway, if you thinks its bad now, you’re in for a big surprise with patch 3.3.
    Patch 3.3 features 4 new 5 man instance that drops only purple epics of ilvl 232 (ToC 10 ilvl) so forget about raiding anything under Icecrown when that patch makes it live. (Which my be sonner that we tought since its already on test realm).

  19. #19 by Jacob on October 6, 2009 - 1:04 pm

    > No one wants to do the “hard” part of Ulduar, apparently

    We’re having that problem too, but we’re on Mimiron.

  20. #20 by Galilyse on October 6, 2009 - 1:34 pm

    I’m very much having a similar problem with my guild. We’re a casual raid guild, and not even seen past Iron Council in Ulduar yet. But we’re working on it. And we’re finding ToC very hard- but again are working through it. Some nights it will be hard and we’ll only down one boss…then I will look at the calendar the next day and I’ll see that half the people who were there the night before no longer want to attend (I don’t want to wipe constantly! I don’t have the gold for it!). So then I’m left with half a guild wanting to continue with Ulduar while the others all go off in pug groups to do ToC.

    Heck even one of my fellow raid leaders is under the impression that we should run Onyxia because the gear is better. I have some guildies who just wanna run Naxx 10 so they can clear it!

  21. #21 by Ambrosyne on October 6, 2009 - 1:40 pm

    @Kotakh – I’m not sure. I was too sick and whiny to care, and I think the others were just…frustrated. For some reason the lack of a hunter was an issue for Mim (and my scrub hunter doesn’t count, apparently!).

  22. #22 by Koramoor on October 6, 2009 - 1:48 pm

    Ya, you have to have a Ranged Mail class to tank the head unless you have a Warrior Spell-reflect tank it ala Ciderhelm.

    Your Hunters are also going to to really help keep an even burn in phase 4…

    Sometimes DPS is useful… but then they usually die in a fire…

  23. #23 by Voink on October 6, 2009 - 2:22 pm

    I can’t tell you how much I agree. Our casual guild has only 2 nights a week (of course, they’re nights I can’t regularly make since I’m lame) for even 10 mans, and they’ve all been ToTC/Ony as of late. We got up to Vesax in our last serious push and I really want to down Yogg-Saron (before we outgear him to the point where it’s trivial), even if it’s only in 10. Not for the achievement, but because it’s *fun*. I don’t mind wipes, and I love the challenge of it.

    On the other hand, being a casual guild, we don’t always have our A team and that’s why we’re doing easier content for equivalent/better gear. I get that. But it’s still often frustrating for me.

  24. #24 by Ron on October 6, 2009 - 2:40 pm

    I’d make the excuse that there was a HUGE football game on last night, but I know most of your lot doesn’t care about that :P

    Outside of that, I have nothing for you :(. Didn’t you implement your “core raider” system to avoid this issue?

  25. #25 by Kotakh on October 6, 2009 - 2:55 pm

    @ Ron – Problem is half the core raiders are healer lol

  26. #26 by Ambrosyne on October 6, 2009 - 3:00 pm

    @Ron – See: Kotakh’s comment. :P

    @Koramoor – I suppose my CrankyTank could have SR’d it, but I think he liked to have a hunter help out with that…hmm…

    I still say my scrub hunter has MD just like every other hunter! :P Just because 1/3 of my DPS is useless that fight because I’m BM doesn’t mean I’m -totally- useless!

  27. #27 by Ron on October 6, 2009 - 3:12 pm

    Then I repeat…

    Didn’t you implement a core raider system to avoid this problem :P

    Don’t make me come back and Holy Nova DPS for you

  28. #28 by Jyorore on October 6, 2009 - 3:41 pm

    I posted about this same exact thing yesterday on my blog, in many more, less pretty words. My guild currently has ToC on farm, but cant get a raid together to finish off Yogg or even work on hardmodes.

  29. #29 by Brent on October 6, 2009 - 5:10 pm

    You have become one angry angry bubble :-)

  30. #30 by Zombiee on October 6, 2009 - 5:42 pm

    I’m the raid leader for my guild and I was having the same problem with people not showing for Ulduar raids. Now I do as suggested by Seri. I schedule a 25man raid, it might be VoA, Ony, ToC or Ulduar depending on how I feel and how much people whined the last time.

    Someone said “Oh good, ToC! The gear is better here!” last time? Ulduar it is!

    I had someone bail on the formed raid twice cause it wasn’t where they wanted to go … I think they’ve found a new guild now. /gkick and /ignore are lovely forms of therapy.

  31. #31 by Kiramaren on October 6, 2009 - 9:26 pm

    Its the same over here :(, its a general disinterest I find from some ppl. We have locked Uld for the past 3 weeks and had one night of attempts at Yogg, we have been stuck on him forever, either from lack of ppl or not a steller make up :s we have Toc/Onxy/uld on the calendar and now I am working with other guilds to set up joint 25mans, so far we have done 25man Uld (stopped with that guild because they found enough to do it on their own). And we did a joint Toc 25man last Thursday and we got to the twins it was the first time for almost all of us on 25man, Monday comes along and we are supposed to get back in there, I have my ppl all ready and invited (for the most part, just waiting to see what they will bring) and I wsp one of their officers, so you guys all set?!? They had 8 ppl on…. you had sign ups too right? /nods… ummm… my guild waited an hour or so and they still didn’t have enough to go. We did OS 25man partial pug with 1 drake, so that my ppl would be actively doing something, but I still felt bad it seems like a time waste and that I was cheating my guildies out of something better.

    They seem like a great bunch of ppl and they are at the most part at our skill lvl and we jived really well but their mentalities are different from our own, we are more hardcore which surprises me, but to each their own, I am debating whether to find someone else to go with us or keep it on a more casual basis though it urks me, we have a schedule and I always try to adhere to it, the odd change up happens if we don’t have the make up or ppl or whatever but I do my best to follow it. So I expected the same from their side and that was the expectation when we set up the 2nd night of continuation.

    As the GM I feel like the glue that holds us together and sticks us to our goals, its hard though and many days I get frustrated from lack of commitment… sign up! No I don’t just put the events on the schedule cause I think it looks cool, its there for a reason, if you cant come decline if you can accept (I told my guildies that if they sign up 2 min prior idc it lets me know they want to come so i’m not wsp ppl and saying “oh hai you coming?? No?Yes?Kthxbai!)

    I like being GM but man there is so much to do and keep track of (and well ppl never really see all that takes place)… can you pass me your beating stick I am in need of a motivational tool >:D

  32. #32 by Kiramaren on October 6, 2009 - 9:26 pm

    Oooooops wall of text :s teehee

  33. #33 by HoHo on October 7, 2009 - 2:22 am

    My guild had similar problems. We ended up doing U25 on first day (and second if needed) after the reset and would go to Ony/Totc after it was cleared. If people don’t sign for Ulduar they would start loosing DKP. If your guild doesn’t use DKP then at least take away their prio for next totc raid.

  34. #34 by Forreststump on October 7, 2009 - 8:21 am

    An unfortunate effect of “human nature” – we like to take the easy route. To content. To gear. To everything.

    And it sucks.

    But, it can quickly tell you who is in it “for the win”, and who is in it “for the pretty purple pixels”.

  35. #35 by rustbeard on October 7, 2009 - 9:07 am

    Can I borrow your beating stick? I’m just trying to beat folks into raiding period. Everybody tells me they “want” to raid, but no one wants to sign up, much less show up.

  36. #36 by adgamorix on October 7, 2009 - 11:40 am

    @Koramoor – You ‘have’ to have a ranged mail wearer? Our first Mim kill, and Mim HM kill had a boomkin doing the head tanking. We’ve also done it with spreists, mages, lolocks, and I’ve tanked it as a Holy Paladin.

    If your guild doesn’t want to raid you have two choices.

    1) Kick the ones who don’t and recruit to fill their spots.

    2) Gquit and find/form a guild that meets your needs.

    I have a guild of exactly 10 people. No more, no less. We are down to one night a week of ‘scheduled’ raids – in 3 hours we do Ony, ToC, ToGC, and VoA if we have it. We farm Uld/Naxx for badges and we take PUGs along so we can meet new people.

    This didn’t happen overnight though. We started with the core – tanks and healers – and added the right DPS as we went along. We intentionally stacked the guild so our tanks are Plate/Leather, our heals are cloth/mail, our DPS is 1 Plate, 1 Mail (hunter), 1 Leather melee, 1 leather caster, 1 cloth caster, 1 mail caster.

    I’m lucky enough that I’ve known the 9 other members for years, and we get along well. You have to decide what you want most – progression or social time. Personally, I say the hell with the social – I’ll do that on an alt if I need it.

  37. #37 by Tego on October 7, 2009 - 4:03 pm

    I have nothing constructive to add to the discussion… but /thwack needs to be an emote… something like :

    “x deftly smacks you on the back of the head, managing to miss shield spikes, spikey armor, and indeed your helmet completely” (and exclusively to the person being whispered “you F’in scrub”

  38. #38 by Vel on November 3, 2009 - 2:51 pm

    and the selfish healer is thinking “but I only have 10 frags!”

  1. RT @Ilikebubbles Awesome post of awesomeness | 2fps

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: