The Joys of Random Pugging

Edit: Broken recount is broken.  So let’s address the rest of the fail, because that’s still perfectly valid.  :P

If you don’t know an instance, speak up.   Better you ask than have your healer screaming obscenities at you IRL.  I mean sure, I’ll wonder inwardly how the hell you don’t know NEXUS, but that’s better than calling you a douchenozzle becuase you’re making my life insanely difficult, right?  I’ve had several cases of DPS wiping groups because they didn’t know fights already (though it makes more sense in the new heroics).  Bwuh?  ASK, PEOPLE.  At least for the new heroics, I stop and ask if people know the fights first.  If you don’t answer and then wipe us with something stupid, I’m going to be pissy. 

If a boss has spell reflect, it behooves you to notice your own dots stacking up on you and STOP.  PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP.  If you keep taking a ton of damage, your healer is screaming JUMP at you in party, and you notice a stacking debuff?  Yeah.  Do it.  Please.

Speaking of heroic fails, my lovely tank healing, high crit, low haste build?  Yeah, it fucking sucks for heroics.  Oh the normal ones are fine, but if you get in the new ones with even a semi-derp derp group?  Yeah, kiss your sanity goodbye.  You can’t have low DPS in there.  You just can’t.  I know this because I tried.  And I couldn’t just group kick because they were guildies.  Bwuh.

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  1. #1 by Arrens on December 14, 2009 - 10:10 am

    Newb-locks. Seriously. When spell reflected upon and you suddenly see corruption or CoA on you, Shadow Ward is your friend. (Whereas Immolate? That can’t be helped. We just suffer through it.)

    Remind them of that, failangel. Do it as a public service announcement.

  2. #2 by Faid on December 14, 2009 - 10:11 am

    I got randomed into H Nexus as a DPS. (Mainspec tank, but wanted to DPS for the easy time of it.)

    I get in and everyone’s dead (uh-oh.) After the healer accusing the tank of being not def capped I armoried him and found him 60 points under cap. So I offer to tank so we can just go. He then proceeds to do 500 DPS as arms spec. He was outshined by the rogue using Red Sword of courage with 900 DPS and the mage doing 1100 and me doing 3.7k as a tank. WHY.

  3. #3 by Linedan on December 14, 2009 - 10:12 am

    I ran heroic Ahn’kanet yesterday with a spriest that was doing 800 dps early on (I was on my dorf hunter doing 3x that). I was shaking my head until I checked her gear and realized that bless her heart, she was in there with a ton of level 76-78 blues. Maybe one ilevel 200 piece, period. Turns out she was smart enough to ask about the fights (she’d never seen the Herald before) and she did a very good job considering her gear limitations…and even actually got a couple upgrades.

    Actually, I haven’t run into any duuuuurrrp groups yet. The closest was the one I tanked on Linedan, AN. We had a death nugget in there who pulled stuff instead of letting me do it, linked Recount in party chat after the Watcher fight (he did 7500 dps and damn near died, and then patronizingly said “lol, that’s OK” to the other deeps), and popped Army of the Taunt twice. I HATE ARMY OF THE TAUNT. MY RAGE BAR IS FULL IRL WHEN ARMY OF THE TAUNT APPEARS.

  4. #4 by Ambrosine on December 14, 2009 - 10:18 am

    @Linedan – haha. Army of the Taunt? They’re the Homeboys in BoO parlance. But yeah, always ask your tank before bringing those out to play!

  5. #5 by Whitebeard on December 14, 2009 - 10:20 am

    As a rogue, every new encounter started with me going “what do I need to be careful about here?”

    or, in layman’s terms: What ouchies me to the floor if I stupid’ed?

    Sometimes its things that I dont notice quickly, such as ye olde Shell of Pain from the succubi back in BT, such a cruel spell.

    But I’m amazed one would not notice he has his own debuffs on himself.
    …Then again I know healers who had serious cases of tunnel vision.

  6. #6 by Locktart on December 14, 2009 - 10:24 am

    I’ll admit to being a fail-lock and applying DoTs to myself. I blame this on having a hard time seeing the spell reflect on the mobs that have them. Usually I’ll notice right after Haunt or UA is on me but sometimes Corruption or CoA will sneak on, since they’re instant. I do use Shadow Ward when this happens to keep down some of the damage.

    I am getting better at noticing when spell reflect is up. My fingers, on the other hand, seem to ignore that.

  7. #7 by xuna on December 14, 2009 - 10:37 am

    well… almost everything went fine until the H-Halls of reflection. Tha part of the chase is scarring my mind, as the DPS tend to jump to their deaths into the abyss. How in heaven’s sake you fail to see a CANYON there and jump into it while dpsing?

  8. #8 by Forreststump on December 14, 2009 - 11:10 am

    I’ve got your group DPS total beat handily

    My failpug fails more than your failpug. =p

  9. #9 by Taz on December 14, 2009 - 11:11 am

    Went through the Oculus the other day with a pug group containing a DK pulling MAX 400 dps the whole time. Ouch.

  10. #10 by Ambrosine on December 14, 2009 - 11:19 am

    @Taz – ….my hunter pet can do 1k.


    @Forrestump – …

  11. #11 by Tego on December 14, 2009 - 11:54 am

    wow, the LFG tool must be bi-polar… I see either posts about how epic fail the group was, or how much people love it. right now I just fear the failapes getting good enough gear that the gearscore check puts them in with my ass… Tego NEED ICC LOOTS NOWS

  12. #12 by Chris Anthony | Duct Tape and a Prayer on December 14, 2009 - 12:37 pm

    It’s worth noting, as has been mentioned elsewhere, that damage meter mods are completely broken right now. They rely on custom chat channels to receive and relay information among party members about damage dealt and received; custom chat channels don’t work cross-server; therefore damage meters like Recount don’t see all – perhaps most of – the damage that some PUG members are doing. (If the player is more than 5-10 yards away from you, you’re not getting all the damage they’re doing.) I’ve seen my Recount and another player’s differ by as much as 3000 DPS.

    This is not to say that the players you played with weren’t bad – just that it’s no longer sufficient to say “Recount shows them sucking at DPS”, because Recount is no longer accurate in PUGs (and, until Blizzard implements cross-server custom chat channels, may never be accurate again)

  13. #13 by evisceratespam on December 14, 2009 - 12:38 pm

    you msut have not heard…
    check out about this too

    Recount and such don’t work in cross-faction instances because the hidden chat channel it uses to operate simply don’t exsist cross-faction.

    It’s an issue that will probably never be worked out simply due to mechanics.

    With that said..all Meters will be broken in cross-faction PuG’s wether it’s the players fault or not

  14. #14 by shadowtycho on December 14, 2009 - 12:40 pm

    the snow continues.

  15. #15 by Rhidach on December 14, 2009 - 1:09 pm

    I did one heroic with four guildees and one pug. The pug was a paladin who was usually Holy but was trying to gear Ret and was running heroics in that spec. No problem, though she was doing barely 1k dps in iLevel 200 purples. We agreed in /g that we didn’t mind carrying her, but then at the end of the heroic she said “great run guys! What’s next?”

    We all dropped group.

  16. #16 by Chris Anthony | Duct Tape and a Prayer on December 14, 2009 - 2:02 pm

    @Rhidach, let’s make sure I have this straight:

    * PUG paladin’s main spec was Holy.
    * PUG paladin wanted to put together a Ret set.
    * PUG paladin made this clear at the beginning of the run.
    * PUG paladin would not have been allowed to roll on Ret gear as a Holy paladin because she wasn’t Ret. (Perhaps you do it differently. I’ve never encountered anyone in a PUG who didn’t make that rule.)
    * PUG paladin did subpar DPS because she was in subpar gear, but was honest and enthusiastic.
    * You bailed.

    How exactly are you the one who should be laughingly complaining about this?

  17. #17 by rustbeard on December 14, 2009 - 2:03 pm

    Feeling better about msyelf already.

    @ Rhidach – Having been the bottom of the totem pole on more than one occasion, I thank you on behalf of all failnoobs. The switch to another spec brings not only difficulty in gathering the gear, but “relearning the class.” It’s one thing to get a guildie to craft some armor and weaps for your, it’s another to be proactive and smack something rather than reactive in healing. Of course, it would have been better had she said, “Thanks for letting me stay, I know I couldn’t contribute much. I’d be willing to do another, if you think you can handle the extra weight.” Maybe I’m just soft in that regards, but I’m much more likely to stick around and help after that kind of upfront honesty.

  18. #18 by Ndiayne on December 14, 2009 - 2:17 pm

    The “how the hell you don’t know [instance]?” mentality is probably a big part of why newer players DON’T ask questions and end up flailing around helplessly in group content. They don’t want to be made fun of for being new to the group stuff in question.

    If you think your group doesn’t know the mechanics, then it is NOT difficult to say something about boss mechanics beforehand without being insulting.

    “Hey guys, don’t forget to jump occasionally to knock of the Intense Cold debuff on this boss,” is a simple and effective way of giving your PuG a heads-up on stuff to watch for without embarassing anyone.

  19. #19 by Aurik on December 14, 2009 - 2:22 pm

    It really is quite tough to do the new instances with sub-par dps, but I am getting a bit… worried about some of the negativity (not on your part – the spell reflect stuff is so annoying as a healer ><).

    For one, I've done Forge of Souls with two sub-1k dps (noticable lacking dps, not just relying on the meters) and managed it fine. It was slow, it taxed my mana more than usual since the fights were lasting forever, but it was *doable* just not an easymode run, here are your badges, kthxbye. The 'imba' dps warrior whined all the way through they were 'too low' and yet we completed it.

    Secondly, I joined 'random heroix!' with my slightly under-geared druid friend who's just hit 80 for the first time a week ago. He's got a few epics already, and has all his gear 'chanted, can pull around 2.4k dps, but was asked to leave a party when we zoned into Halls of Reflection. Fair dos, he's not 'geared enough'… but I wanted to play with him and random took us there and we both ended up being on a 15 min timer before we could try again =/ (can't be kicked until 5 mins after you join).

    But, yes, on the main point, I totally agree – people should speak up. Unfortunately the attitude of some people to others not knowing tacts is abysmal. I joined an HoS pug on my baby warrior and I zoned in to see "lol, I hope you know the way and pulls here, most tanks don't and I want this to go fast"… this coulda been my first time tanking that instance, or my first time even being there and already I have someone making me feel bad if I didn't know what to do exactly. Same person told the 'lock 'only faillocks drink, lifetap and let the healer drink'. /sigh

    On the upside, I've had some amazing fun with the new pug system the last few days and met some absolutely amazing and fun players – especially in the wee, small hours.


  20. #20 by Voink on December 14, 2009 - 2:23 pm

    “You can’t have low DPS in there. You just can’t. I know this because I tried. And I couldn’t just group kick because they were guildies.”

    I know your pain, Amber. I know your pain.

    As geared as I am, if I’m doing 43% of our damage on the gauntlet (with dispels and a battle rez included) then we’re not making it.

    I’m not doing that instance again (unless random puts me there, in which case it can’t be helped) with anything but a guild group that I know is up to the task.

  21. #21 by Ambrosine on December 14, 2009 - 2:45 pm

    Some people are jerks, yes, and will LOL at you if you ask for an explanation. But if you wipe a group repeatedly becuase you’re too chickenshit to ask, well, then resulting frustration feeds into the very reaction that you’re afraid of. If they’re jerks then they’re jerks and it’s all on them. If they kick you, well, you probably didn’t want to be in the party with them anyway.

    Most of my angry is related to the fact that I asked, before the first boss of FoS if everyone knew the fight. Silence. We go in, and the mage dies on second phase because he stands in the swirly. The warlock lives, but then BACKS INTO THE SWIRLY AGAIN MOMENTS LATER AND DIES. With fewer fear targets, I get feared twice in a row and we die.


    When I did my first random on my warrior and we got Oc, the first words I said were “I’ve run this only a couple of times, and it was a long time ago and I have never tanked it. If there’s anything I should know, please say something.” There wasn’t a word of derision, and we patiently plugged the way through the instance. And that’s how it should be, damn it. >:|

  22. #22 by Ambrosine on December 14, 2009 - 3:15 pm

    ETA: Here you go, Righteous Orbs said it for me: “…it’s not a question of gearing, it’s a question of performance. All I expect from DPS is that they don’t stand in fire and output DPS commensurate with their gear level – whether that’s 2k or 12k. I’m sick of dragging people through instances by their Tier 9 robes, when their rotation appears to be a consequence of smacking the keyboard against their arse.”

  23. #23 by Chris Anthony | Duct Tape and a Prayer on December 14, 2009 - 3:25 pm

    @Ambrosine, to contrast, I was vote-kicked from four consecutive PUGs where I said up-front “I’ve never done Forge of Souls before, but I’ve read the fights, and I’ll do my best”. I got a patient tank on the fifth try and healed it very successfully.

    The ideal world is not filled with douchebags. The real world, sadly, is; the game world even more so.

  24. #24 by BethE on December 14, 2009 - 5:03 pm

    _I joined an HoS pug on my baby warrior and I zoned in to see “lol, I hope you know the way and pulls here, most tanks don’t and I want this to go fast”… this coulda been my first time tanking that instance, or my first time even being there and already I have someone making me feel bad if I didn’t know what to do exactly. Same person told the ‘lock ‘only faillocks drink, lifetap and let the healer drink’._

    I would have let that person die. So very hard. If he’s doesn’t want the warlocks drink, what would make me think he’s going to let the healer drink?

  25. #25 by Tego on December 14, 2009 - 5:03 pm

    for the under geared druid friend, I wouldn’t have left. they can ask you to leave, but the reason you can’t be kicked in the first 5 min is to prevent bullshit like that, and if they just wait the 5 min to kick, stay in the back and don’t do anything/ get the jerks killed, Stupidity should be punishable by death, and at least in WoW it is


    “Anyone ever think that He sounds amazingly like Kirk yelling KAHNN!!! when he yells for arathas?”

  26. #26 by xuna on December 14, 2009 - 5:04 pm

    what bothers me most is the “license to douchebag” that most people seem to have on the net. Just because you dont know someone in person and he is far away from you doesn’t mean you have the right to belittle someone.

    There are less “good-guys/gals” out there now. Every note about the LFD is “good guy” is a godly overgeared dude whom proceeds to make the instance clear in 1.2 minutes, according to certain comments at I disagree. Enthusiasm and honesty can be much more enjoyable and surely will bring back better results.

    i just want this game to be fun again… not a conundrum of whiners, ragers, and lootcrazed docuhebags. After all the WoW experience is made up by the people you play with. The whole attractiveness of the system is the social part!

    I just want to have fun…

  27. #27 by Joe Ego on December 14, 2009 - 5:52 pm

    Looks like the only way around recount issues is to have all of the dps post their own recounts in party chat.

    New heroics? Pretty fun until you get to HoR. I used to OOM while learning Thorim (particularly in arena). I OOM now learning Deathwhisper (over 10k HPS does not last you very long). The first fight in HoR gets me much closer to OOM than any other non-raid in the game. It is absolutely nuts in there.

  28. #28 by Cassandri on December 14, 2009 - 7:26 pm

    The trick it, if you’re new to an instance, don’t say anything til the pull before the boss then say “what do i need to know here?”.

    People will be too keen to give the boss a go (after clearing all that trash) to kick you for someone else. And they’ll prob give you the one liner “don’t dps when you get marked” or something.

    I’ve done a lot of the new instances with people who have never run them and have lootz fever (yeah, queue for heroic as DPS instead of heals/tank and don’t do normal mode first) and haven’t kicked or voted off anyone. Although I was pretty pissed when I had to heal HFoS with a main spec healer playing as Shadow (my main spec!) because their gear wasn’t really good enough for heroics. There’s being carried, and being carried.

  29. #29 by Christian on December 15, 2009 - 12:16 am

    My main problem so far has been overzealous tanks pulling like crazy. If you see that I’m still buffing or looting, don’t run ahead of me and start pulling mobs.
    Most of them run like they in a race for the retard award…

  30. #30 by HoHo on December 15, 2009 - 6:37 am

    I got called elitist prick for chainpulling UP and doing as much damage as the 3 dps put together. It still took a whole 20 minutes to clear :(

  31. #31 by Prot on December 15, 2009 - 12:28 pm

    5 Random Oculus groups later and I’m ready to kill people. I had one group where one of the players decided he would try to jump from his platform to where the Drakes are handed out, because he did not know about the portal.

    And I refuse to tank HoR on my DK anymore. Too many fail healers make me look bad, and by fail I mean people with gear scores 2K under the rest of the group.

  32. #32 by SlikRX/Balthazario on December 16, 2009 - 6:43 pm

    Amber, I enjoy your blog a LOT, but I’ll take a wee bit of exception here, as a n00b to level 80.

    Since you quoted Tam about “doing the DPS”, I would hope you would have also read the bit about the n00bcow. The new LFG system is EXTREMELY unfriendly to recently dinged 80s. You guys had months to learn all the regulars and heroics. We just got here, and haven’t had the luxury of such experience.

    I’m a n00b, I ask questions, and I get one of two replies:

    – WTF WHY ARE YOU HERE?!?!?!? Well, because I *DO* have heroic level gear, the LFG RNG put me here, and EVERYONE has a first time for everything.

    – Dead silence.

    Not everyone has the opportunity to run with guildies to learn everything (and have fun waiting in the queue if you opt for non-heroics)

    Not all groups are pleasant or willing to take a (decently geared) but inexperienced player.

    I will usually wait until the 2nd or 3rd trash pull to speak up, because my DPS is adequate, and the pulls demonstrate that. I at least have some numbers to show that I’m “not complete fail”.

    But even still, the long pauses I get after asking for info/help etc does NOT encourage me (or anyone) to ask questions.

    I mean, once upon a time, weren’t the heroics SUPPOSED to be tough? Somehow they’ve become the emblem ATM, and if it takes more than 8 or 9 minutes, people get pissed.

    Or, heaven forbid, if you aren’t already over geared for it. How DARE anyone enter a heroic “at level” and actually have to work?


  33. #33 by Godless Heathen on March 10, 2010 - 6:01 pm

    Until today I only knew 6 of the heroics and I’m geared to the teeth. My old guild wouldn’t run to teach me, and my new guild just got me so they didn’t know. The first time I ever did a random I got Occ and while they were willing to wait for me to figure some things out on my own, I said “I don’t know this instance” several times, they still wouldn’t tell me how to do the fights. As a hunter, my default is “shoot the boss till it dies” unless given other instructions. Next time it was AN, and I wiped the group because after saying “I don’t know this instance” three times, they didn’t tell me about the Hadranox fight. See above strategy about shooting the boss till dead. Even a half second to raid mark what I was supposed to shoot would have saved us.

    After that, I just left the party if it wasn’t one of the ones I knew, because either WoW is full of people who don’t know how to type, or don’t know how to read. Really, if you see the words “I don’t know this instance” it’s time to either teach or tell people to get out. I’ll take the deserter debuff in stride.

  1. Issues with Recount (my arch-nemesis) « Contortedangels Blog

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